I recently posed a question regarding the possibility of living a pure/sinless life after coming to salvation through Christ. I now open that same discussion to this blog- do you think it is possible to live in Christ without sinning? Why or why not? I know you're out there...
15 comments:
Forgive me for being picky... but could you clarify a little? "Living in Christ" could be taken a few ways. Some would say by definition that living in Christ is living without sin.
Or do you mean living the rest of your life as a Christian without sinning? I'm just trying to determine which question to answer.
Thanks.
oooh, interesting question. i love these!
Did Jesus give an impossible command when He commanded the woman to leave her life of sin in John 8? or the man in John 5 whom He commanded to stop sinning? Paul also gives a correction in 1 corinthians along those lines. but in 1John, if we claim to be sinless, we deceive ourselves...
what's the answer?
ultimately, i am reiminded that i can do ALL things through Christ who gives me strength. In Christ i beleive that living a sinless life is possible. ONLY in CHRIST, though. if we are truly dying to ourselves and we no longer lives but CHRIST LIVES IN US... if Christ is doing all the living instead of us, shouldnt that life be sinless?
I voted no, because we still have a sin nature and 1 John does say we deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin. But, was he talking about us as Christians, or was he talking to those who like the rich young ruler felt they had not broken the commandment ever?
Then again, if I say that I still sin, when I come to a situation where sin is crouching at the door, am I justifying it sometimes by saying "well I still have a sin nature"? Does accepting a sin nature make it easier to give in to sin?
Maybe Zach's right. If we truly live in Christ, how can we sin?
Jayson,
1. by "living in Christ" I mean living under His authority and not our own (Romans 6-8), accepting His grace and power over sin as it is and not working out of our own (Ephesians 2, Romans 8), recognizing that if we live in our sin nature we cannot have any part with Him (Romans 6, Hebrews 12, 1 John 4-5), etc- basically, by living in Christ I mean not reverting back to the nature of trusting in ourselves as adequate to defeat sin, but trusting in His power and authority, IE- faith (1 John 5).
2. I do not mean living the rest of your life in Christ without sinning, for scripture reveals to us that we sin without even knowing it (that was the reason for the law acc. Romans 6-7), but I mean that in the awareness of sin, that is, sinning intentionally and understandably, can we always take authority over it and never again submit to what once had mastery over us? That is really the question here, so thanks for asking the clarifying questions :D
3. Regarding our past masters (and those yet to be understood in the future), can we live with true freedom over them? Can the man once addicted to alcohol or pornography truly find freedom from those things in Jesus (in this life) or will he always struggle with them and should he expect to fall "every once in awhile?"
Zach,
The one hesitation is that we cannot be rid of our cursed flesh, it is constantly dying and it itself is not to be redeemed until we pass from this life. What are your thoughts regarding the nature of our bondage to the body?
Chad,
Regarding 1 John, I personally have a belief that chapter one is intended to read/proclaimed to those who are not yet in fellowship with the believers, I say this because that is how they are addressed- as if they are not in the fellowship that comes through the belief/confession/repentance/cleansing found in Jesus; also considering John does give an address until Chapter 2, where it is specifically speaking to the "children," and from there on there is no thought of sinning- what do you make of that?
Romans, 1 Peter, Hebrews, and 1 John all make statements regarding to obedience/masters, saying that we are slaves to what we obey, whether the flesh or Jesus. Obedience indicates willingness... so personally I am leaning toward the understanding that in Christ's authority, any sin that I am aware of I can claim victory and freedom over, not expecting to any longer be a slave to it, and that for any sin I am not aware of the grace and full awareness of Jesus Christ covers through faith. What do you think?
2. Can we always take authority over it (intentional sin) and never again submit to what once had mastery over us? - Yes.
3a. Can the man once addicted to alcohol or pornography truly find freedom from those things in Jesus (in this life)? - Yes.
3b. Will he always struggle with them? - Probably.
3c. Should he expect to fall "every once and a while?" - Yes.
Now - clarification:
As growing and maturing believers, we are constantly being made aware by the Holy Spirit of things that have mastery over us. These are individual to every believer. Can we break free from them through God's help and strength? Absolutely. Will we continue to struggle with those things? Probably, especially if the subject of mastery is physically related - chemical dependence, for example. Although we can be spiritually free from them, we are stuck with our physical bodies and fleshly desires (as you address to Zach).
In regard to "expecting to fall," I believe that type of attitude can keep you from falling. When we are realistic with ourselves and our known weaknesses, it is much easier to rest on Christ's strength in those areas of our lives. When we think we have defeated a certain sin, we are already committing the sin of pride and setting ourselves up for a fall.
Great discussion.
I do not have time to respond in length, but my initial thought stems from 2 Peter 1. What are your thoughts on "never falling?"
I think the key to I Peter 1:10 (Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall) is found in verse 12: Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
Peter has to keep reminding them about these things so they don't fall. I don't mean to use the term "expecting to fall" in a negative context. I mean it as Peter does here: be aware that you will fall if you don't do these things. These are things that we already know, but can easily forget.
ah, the nature of being bound to flesh. and in truth, we do sin without knowing it. thank you for that clarification. My perspective is that when sin comes knocking (that is, we are aware of its approach) we can ALWAYS choose to not open the door, pardon the cheesy expression.
as to my thoughts about it, i think scripture is clear in that the members of our body are at war within us, and that we must be masters over our flesh, submitting it to the Spirit. Ultimately, not only the flesh but the heart mind and will as well MUST be made subject to the Holy Spirit.
i personally think our biggest problem is that we take ourselves off the altar too often.
I think the very essence the pride that so many fall into regarding the overcoming of sin is the very thing you mentioned, the idea that WE have defeated it. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear in the beginning of this discussion, but I don't believe that WE ourselves have the ability to defeat sin altogether, it is only by the authority of JESUS CHRIST that sin is defeated and we benefit HIS strength at that moment, we do not supplement it or add to it in any way, it is always HIS work. That is the message I find in 1 John 5 and throughout 1 and 2 Peter, that as long as we are battling sin in our own strength, we can expect to fall, but as we yield our strength to following HIM we find that He will remove from us what hinders us from being with Him. What do you all think?
It looks to me that we are starting to mix terms a bit. Sin affects our lives in every way, and defeating sin happens on different levels. For instance:
Spiritually: Christ's perfect life and sacrifice permanently defeated sin and its spiritual repercussions in one moment. This is a fact, not an ongoing process.
Physically: We live on a cursed planet and in cursed bodies. Until we are physically regenerated, we will never escape sin's hold on our lives.
Mentally: After salvation, our choice making parameters change. We have the ability to choose not to sin. As we grow in Christ, we retrain our thinking and worldview to increasingly choose God's will over our own.
So when you talk of defeating sin, what exactly are you referring to? Also, can you explain the difference of the authority of Jesus Christ "defeating sin" and the personal choices we make every day?
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2008/9-12/arts/feature/13258.cfm
What do you think?
I think he's still living a lie and is pretending even more now than ever before. To oppose the will of God and believe we can get away with it is the most intolerable of arrogances!
We do not have the option to change scripture to suit our desires. We all live by a standard of some sort, whether it is of our own making or of a revealed nature, but the two can certainly not mix.
I find this incredibly disturbing and I pray that even in the distortion of yet another man's actions our churches do not waver from the standard that is the Word of God. One man's actions and deception cannot change the Truth.
Galatians 1:6-10
I agree.
This situation looks to me to be a case of someone simply giving up and giving in. We are to "Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you," along with the numerous places of not giving in to the flesh or temptation. Instead of living in resistance to the flesh, he has embraced it.
The amazing part about this story is the ministry he had previously. His songs and concerts reached out to (literally) millions. Loosing sight of that is a meltdown of epic proportions.
Its a good reminder that resisting the devil has to be a lifelong, daily thing.
http://www.jesusmcc.org/news/archives/83
Very interesting listening/watching, especially if you've seen or attended a Ray Boltz concert before.
Around minute 63 the pastor comes back on stage. Listen to how he characterizes the "new" Ray Boltz.
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